Turning Anger Into Power with Jennifer Cox

Women are angry - and justifiably so. It feels as though the world is fighting against us, with rights we fought so hard for being stripped away and the increasing rates of femicide. In the face of this, rage is not only understandable but essential. Jennifer Cox, author of Women Are Angry and cohost of the wildly funny and honest podcast, Women Are Mad, is one of the voices at the forefront of this movement, helping women feel safe and ok in their anger. Her book gives shape and language to our collective anger that has made us feel silenced and dismissed for so long. 

Since having my daughter, it has given me the opportunity to see the world through her eyes. And there is a particular kind of rage that blooms as you navigate through motherhood that could only be described as a fierce, unrelenting fire born of both love and fear; a rage rooted in the desperate need to protect her from the world that too often refuses to value her. Suddenly, the things I once shrugged off now feel like a fire alarm I can’t ignore. The stakes are higher, the nonsense is less tolerable, and the anger is louder and clearer than ever before. 

Jennifer captures that transformation in her work, giving voice to the simmering fury we all carry as women. As we continue to be attacked the world over, physically, politically and culturally, Jennifer's message cuts through the noise and reminds us that our anger is not irrational. It is righteous, it is timely, and when we work together, we are powerful. So let's stop swallowing our rage and start using it!

In this interview, Jennifer talks about the root of our collective fury and why it’s important we stop asking so nicely.  She is on a mission to help us out of the dark, and so we can flip on the lights - our anger is not our enemy, it is our compass that will lead us into the light. 

MR: Women Are Angry is a great title, so spot on by the way!  Haha What led you to write this book, and why now?

JC: Well, during the pandemic, the nature of my clinical work had to change overnight. I set up camp in my bedroom because I had nowhere else to work - the kids were everywhere, and I just had to hide out in my bedroom. I just sat on the phone all day with back-to-back patients, from about 7 in the morning till like about 900 p.m. I was losing the plot. I would say the people who were hit hardest were definitely the women, notably women with young kids. It really showed me how much was put on women, always trying to juggle and keep everyone safe and happy. But suddenly we were in this like really closed bubble, and it was terrifying, like what I saw was terrifying. Lockdown basically took away all the niceties, all the ways that women are able to kind of meet other women and get support or leave the house to meet other humans and be treated like a human being in their own right, not just a wife or a mother. So all of that was taken away, and suddenly it's just what you are, and what you are is the container for everybody's anxiety to meet all of their care needs, and I only existed as a tool to lift other women through that experience.

That really broke me because I was dealing with suicide attempts, women with eating disorders and proper raw domestic violence on the phone where I'd literally have to tell my patient to hang up and call the police. It was horrible, I was really like on my knees by the end and then Sarah Everard happened and I think that whatever we had left like as women in terms of our dignity and our sense of what is right went out the door, I think it broke us and we didn't know what to do with our minds at that stage and then what happened at the vigil - I just woke up one morning and just started writing, I  just needed to get this stuff out. I feel really emotional thinking about it, actually, because I haven’t thought about this for so long. Um, and then the Roe vs Wade overturning, and I couldn't stop, like in between patients, I kept my laptop open and I would just write. I felt like each page of this book has my pain etched into it, and it's like a scream of anguish, and it's not just mine, it's also the women that I've worked with. It was helpful to me, I felt like it was giving words to what I didn’t have time to express, because I'm literally just sitting here trying to kind of hold other people together.

I never wanted the clinic to be a business, you know, I think of the value of what you give someone just by being you and staying for as long as they need you. So I just thought, well, look, if I try and get what I've written out into the world, then maybe there's a chance it will help more people. I didn't know how you got a book published, like I just didn't know the process, and I didn’t have those kinds of contacts. I thought well, maybe I'll start just doing like a couple of group sessions, where again I can just get more women into a space and get them to start talking about this stuff so I did two and then the Guardian picked it up like they were doing a piece on women's anger interestingly. The journalist wanted to come along to one of the groups, and I said you can't come to the group, but you could come, and maybe a few women would stay afterwards, and that's what happened. And then suddenly I was kind of out there in the world, and one of my best friends, Salima, who'd come to the group, said, “Look, why don't we do a podcast? Let's just get this spoken about,” and we did. On the eve of the first episode going out my book was out with publishers and there was suddenly a bidding war and suddenly I got this deal and I had to turn my book of feelings into an actual book, but that was the easy bit, it kind of wrote itself, I just joined it all together and made sense of all my inner thoughts. Sorry, that was a lot of information. 

MR: No, thanks for sharing. I know lockdown affected people in so many different ways. I actually became quite agoraphobic; I didn't want to leave the house, I didn’t want to be near people, which is the opposite of who I am as a person. It was like all of my worst fears came to light with the pandemic and isolation, and my anxiety was through the roof. It was absolutely shocking, it was an awful time, but also I feel like it woke a lot of people up to the realities of the world and everything going on, and I feel like people were more connected even though we were disconnected, you know. 

JC: That's a really interesting point, actually, because I wasn't on social media. I'd never been on social media before the podcast started in 2022, god that's gone quick. So that was when I first started to kind of get into social media, and it’s horrible, but you can also build a community and get a conversation going, but it's very difficult to keep it in that zone, isn't it? 

MR: Yeah, and I feel like once the gates opened, you know, a lot of those communities sort of dissipated, and that need for information and connection isn't quite there anymore. I do feel like with what's happening, you know, with Palestine and the Congo, people are reaching out online again.  I feel like I have been in this perpetual fit of anger for so long, it’s kind of like the movie Seven Psychopaths, but it's like seven leagues of anger. 

JC: Yeah, exactly.

MR: But instead of seven personalities, it’s like different things to be angry about. I feel like I've been in that state since 2016, that was when I had my “ah ha” moment, when I realised that not everyone thought leaving the EU was a moronic idea, and that the UK, the world really, was just full of stupid people. Oh my god! 

JC: Yeah, and at least social media allows people to talk about this stuff, across continents and across oceans, so that's the other thing I've really discovered in the value of using social media.

MR: In the book, you describe how girls are socialised from a young age to suppress their anger. Can you talk about how that process starts and what impact it has on adulthood?

JC: I think it starts before a baby is even born because most people find out what they're going to have, and so people start identifying with that growing child well before it's born. Telling the mother what to expect and if you’re having a girl, the family tells you that this is what this girl is going to represent for you, and this is the job she's basically going to do as soon as she is born. And then more and more expectation are heaped on to the baby as soon as they’re born, we are just subjected to more and more of those demands and expectations um what's the word I'm looking for, like transference or like projections basically like this is what women are, this is what little girls are meant to do…

MR: I think you were right with transference because I do feel it's like transference from mother to mother. So like your mother's expectations for you, her mother’s and so forth. That's why I think transference was the right word to use because all of the trauma and expectations that they had then get transferred to you, and then you have that trauma etched into your DNA. That’s why I feel like parenting is reparenting, because I feel like in order to be a good parent to your child, you have to then reparent yourself and reconfigure all those little bugs. 

JC: Yeah, it's like an opportunity to go back and sort the glitches out, isn't it? I mean it's like a gift, it really is. There's nothing else like it, being able to revisit your childhood and experiences. I think something happens when a mother’s holding their baby, it puts you back in touch with being that tiny baby yourself. It's like a sort of short circuit, isn't it, you can feel like the years sort of shrink away, and I think that's your opportunity to do things differently for you and her. 

MR: Yeah, absolutely! So, um, in your book, you write about anger not as a “problem” to fix, but as a vital emotional signal. How can women start to reclaim anger as a source of power rather than shame?

JC: I think we need to be thinking about it very differently like it's a cue, it's just a physical and psychological response but the physical obviously kind of comes first we feel it in our bodies like a reflex that is obviously adrenaline and cortisol in the first instance and the trouble is we're taught and conditioned to feel those feelings as negative so we're like "Oh god oh god this feels out of control, repress, repress, push it down." Be nice, be calm and go and do your yoga, you know all that stuff, so when we're actually allowed to go actually “I'm furious, I'm actually furious." And when we can stay with that feeling, we actually gain more control. We don't have to shout, we don't have to push somebody, we can just know that we’re angry and acknowledge that feeling. By doing that, we're not repressing it, we're helping it kind of sit where it should, and then we can decide what to do with it. And that's why I talk about the need to understand that your body goes into a sort of fight or flight mode in your head, and we'll go, I can't think. I can't think, and because we're not practised in handling those sensations and owning them quickly, we need to give ourselves time. At this stage, we need to go right, okay, I'm feeling a lot. I'm going to just leave the room, and I'm just going to give myself five minutes and walk away and calm down. 

And then we have the opportunity to calm down, take deep breaths, so that we can go back in and say what we need to. I think the more we practice, eventually it becomes part of our range of available responses that we hone in our heads so that next time somebody you know, pushes in front of you at the bank or the next time the school phones you instead of your male partner and you have to run out of a meeting then you can be like "Okay no, I know how to respond to this” and you can do it in a cool way that gets your point heard and you won’t be left feeling it for the rest of the day.

MR: yeah, yeah in my teens I actually used to, like whenever I was angry or had a little argument with my siblings or something I would like go upstairs to my room feeling overwhelmed and then I'd write a letter, I'd write all of my feelings down in a letter, just getting all of my annoyances out and then I'll like put it underneath their door. Then we would talk about it calmly. 

JC: Oh my god, I think that's amazing because I think writing is like the best tool we've got, especially like handwritten letters, because it's slower, so we have time to think about what we want to say. I think it’s really sensible and really effective. 

MR: Thanks, yeah, we would laugh about it together afterwards. Whatever made me angry felt so small after I got it all out and shared my feelings with them. 

JC: I think humour is like so valuable as well, isn't it? I do think people have forgotten how to laugh a bit, but I think we've all gone very, very heavy and very serious. Actually I often find, especially with my kids, when they're really getting under my skin, instead of shouting I just kind of say something funny, you know sort of pointing out the absurdity of the situation rather than shouting “oh my god I can't believe you did that or what were you thinking?” You know you’re just flipping it and seeing it from the other side.

MR: Yeah, I agree, I think humour is always the best way to sort of handle situations like that. Many women are terrified of being labelled as “difficult,” “hysterical,” or “too much.” I know that's something I have struggled with personally as a WOC. How can we push back against this social conditioning without feeling guilty?

JC: Yeah, I think guilt is like a woman's curse, and it's part of this system of like keeping us in our place, keeping us quiet, keeping us controlled. So I think that's what we need to address before we can address how to be more assertive, assured and confident. I think it's also us that think we're being difficult, we're being too much, or we're being too outspoken. And I think we're doing the job for them, we've decided to stay quiet and just stay in our own lane. They don't even have to say to us, you're being difficult, you're being loud, because we've done it to ourselves, so I think that's what we need to kind of really sort out first. We need to figure out “why do I feel so bad for like daring to take up space on this planet,” that's what sort of has to come first, I think and sort of daring ourselves to behave like we would tell our best friend to behave. That's really how we need to talk to ourselves instead of always telling ourselves that we’re stupid or embarrassing. 

MR: Yeah, that's true actually, and I read something recently, um, and it really, hold on, let's see if I can find it. It just really got to me. I think you would appreciate it as well. “The collective consciousness of women is evolving fast and is shaking the foundations of patriarchy". And that really got me because I do feel like with like what you said about lockdown, I do feel like more and more women are sort of realising their power and are now reclaiming it in a sense and understanding that no, I don't have to do these things because society tells me that I should. And I feel like that's why we're seeing so many people in power trying to I guess take that power back from women because they're realising now, like oh crap, like they know they have more power than they realised before. So, yeah, I found that whole thing quite interesting. 

JC: That is so interesting. I do think it could be difficult because of the world of social media, like the algorithm, but I do feel really proud to be part of this conversation now that is growing around how this has not been working for any of us, and we really, really need to make changes. Those changes start by us working together and I think one thing that I've really been encouraging women to like work on is the whole bitchiness thing that we do, like the side swipes and that feeling of you know when you sort of see a celebrity or something and your first instinct is to make judgy comments, like “what a mess” or “look at her hair.” I've been working on this because it is so wired in me, every time I feel that impulse to say something mean, but then I remind myself that it’s pure patriarchy and it is trying to get us to hate each other and to pull each other down. Instead of focusing on our differences, we should focus on what we share, which is massive. What we share is far more than what is different about us, and so I think that is our true strength, if we can tap into that again, we would be unstoppable. Also, men don't do that to each other, they just don't, not in the same way we do, they're like all about “the bros” and that's why, bloody you know, boys clubs exist. Salima said the other day to me, she said “you do realise we've been creating our own old boys network” and it's like oh my god, yeah we are, by bringing all these women in from all these different places and kind of getting all these friends and allies and people that will fight your corner and you can trust and have your back. 

MR: Yeah, no, I do love that, like I think when women are together, I think magic happens, pure magic. 

JC: I went to this gorgeous mobile rage room in Kensal Rise run by this American woman, but it was more like a gym setting with like a padded floor where you can go crazy, and it was amazing. It was magical it was so raw but it just felt so deep and and I said when we kind of all were sitting together at the end I said "Don't you see how different it is" like there were no men to be found they weren’t on our minds, it was just us and we felt so strong.

MR: I love that! 

JC: It was amazing.

MR: You argue that politeness can be a form of emotional repression, especially for women. What do we lose when we’re taught to prioritise being “nice” over being authentic?

JC: Oh my god, I mean it's funny I said “emotional repression” but I think I should have said political because like this is the thing, I didn't intend this book to be a political polemic but the more it sits in the world as it is, the more I realise those little observations are massive, they're so key to how we are, what is being done to us and what we are doing to ourselves. I think by making really small changes like in the way we behave, in the the choices we make about being polite we can have a massive impact like on everyone around us because what you teach her in terms of like what it is to to be polite and how far she should be taking that, that's setting up another woman to do life differently and to teach her kids differently.

MR: Honestly, I used to be the woman who practised performative politeness—constantly shifting my boundaries and suppressing my anger, even when it was justified, just to keep others comfortable. But since becoming a mother, I’ve let go of that need to appease people. I’ve reaffirmed my boundaries, not just for my own well-being, but for the sake of my daughter, Athea. I want her to see that it’s ok to have these feelings. I can set my own boundaries. And that you don't always have to be nice. Also, if I am being honest, I no longer have the bandwidth or patience to do anything else. Haha 

In your research, have you found a correlation between motherhood and a stronger sense of self or boundary-setting?

JC: Definitely and I think this comes back to the point of we can do it for other people but we can't as easily do it for ourselves but if it's for our child it's so much easier to kind of go “that's not happening,” it's so much easier to see logic actually when it's not happening to us. Um, and I also think, like what you were saying, having less time and less energy, it's actually quite useful because a lot of that time and energy before wasn't spent on us, it was spent on making sure everyone else was okay. It's also very scary being a woman in the world, and what we've worked out, I think, is if we're nice to people and we make sure that they don't get angry with us, we're going to be ok and we’re going to remain safe. 

MR: No, absolutely and I do agree it's like you know when you're out and you're approached by a guy it's always better to give them a fake number or politely say no by saying you’re married even if you're not because I feel like if you're attached to a man they leave you alone.

JC: I mean it is crazy, isn't it! It's like we're living in the medieval world, but they have to have that symbol of "Oh, there's a man in this picture, okay fine." 

MR: Yeah! I used to literally go out with like a fake engagement ring when I was younger, so I could just wave my ring finger and say, "Oh no, I'm engaged." 

JC: We can’t just be left alone. You had to do that because it gave them a warning, so you wouldn't have to shock them by going "here's a piece of information you're not going to like." They can see it, they're warned, and you're giving them ample opportunity to go "Oh okay, I'm just going to back off here." 

MR: I remember when I would just say "No, I'm not interested." it would escalate and then you feel that anxiety of not knowing whether or not they were going to attack you, you know what I mean so I was like okay I have to approach this in a different way so I can feel a modicum of safety. 

JC: Absolutely, you have to appease them, look after them and stroke their ego.

MR:  Yeah, and I think a lot of that stems down to this whole “boy mum” thing, like how they're raised to feel like they're better than and entitled.

JC: Yeah, yeah, exactly, that's what's happening, isn't it? And the “boy mum” thing, they have been spoiled by a doting mother and completely abandoned by a disdainful father, so they're always seeking his approval whilst always being absolutely certain that they'll have her love, whatever they do, and it's toxic, that kind of combo is toxic. But the thing is what is difficult about that obviously is that we end up blaming the mother again for basically screwing up the child. And I guess that's why, ultimately, I feel like it really takes a village to raise a child. It can't just be on the mother, it can't be down to one woman to try and create this man.

MR:  Yeah, I actually read something the other day where it said “It takes a village to raise a rapist” meaning, yeah I know it's extreme, but meaning behind it is that the onus isn’t just on the parents, it's the people around that person, the people that let it slide when he went after a girl that was inebriated or the people who fed them with incel posts. You know, and I guess this village takes form on the internet, in the form of like what they're seeing on their phones, those toxic figures that they're being exposed to. And I guess that's what we all have to be very mindful of now is that we don't have control over this global village that they are exposed to, but we can surely help them to kind of navigate through it better? 

JC: Yeah, absolutely.

MR: In your interview with the British Psychological Society, you mentioned how, from birth, women are often coerced and co-opted into specific roles. That really resonated with me, especially as I see how people interact with Athea. I often hear comments like, "Ladies shouldn’t shout," and I make a point to shut that down immediately. These kinds of messages—subtle or overt—seem to shape girls’ behaviour from such a young age. How can we effectively counter these ingrained societal expectations without making children feel like they’re constantly in opposition to the world around them?

JC: Yeah, that's such a good question because that is the messaging they're going to keep getting. I think it's more about beginning to ask questions with them, so like obviously age-appropriate questions, we can't throw a huge heap of our beliefs onto them when they're too young to understand it or be able to filter it. I think you should start by gently asking questions like "Oh, what do you think about that?" And “how did you feel when that person said that to you?” You can also ask questions like “Did you notice that other little boys aren’t being told the same things?” or “Have you noticed a difference in how you are being treated compared to the boys in your class?” Just start having these conversations so that they realise that they have the power to ask the questions themselves, so that they will be the kid asking the teacher “why did you ask me to do that but you didn't ask little Bobby over there?” or “why do you think little girls have to be sweet and sit still?” I think giving them the voice that we didn't have is so important. Like I see girls challenging and questioning boys and you know I've got two boys and one is 18 and the other one is 13 and most of their friends are girls and I think that is because without being intentional about it they probably did just learn to ask questions that led to the kinds of conversations girls are more likely to be having than the boys of their age. You know, I think it is changing a little bit. Like with my 13-year-old, I sort of see a difference between the discussions he's having with his male friends as opposed to what the older one was having with his male friends at that age. I'll be really interested to see how it is for your daughter at that age, which is obviously like 10 years from now.

MR: Yeah, I know she's only 2 now, um, but I make it a point to tell her things like you know, “it's okay to get messy, we can clean it up.” And oh my god, the other day we were in Waitrose and she said "Oh, I like my voice Mummy." And I was like, "Yes, that's so wonderful, you should keep using it." Hearing her say that really got to me, I was like… 

JC: Oh, I love that! That's a really important thing.

MR:  I know, which is why whenever she's singing or yelling or asking questions, I make it a point to answer them. We're currently in the “why phase.” So I'll make sure to answer them. One thing that always makes me laugh is that she always asks me, "Mummy, why do we have to pay for things?" I always tell her, "Well, honey, it's because we live in a capitalist society where a bunch of people decide the value of things," which always makes me laugh.

JC: So, like yes, she won't know now what capitalist means, but she would have grown up familiar with the words, and you know she'll start putting meaning to those words as she kind of figures it out. I think it's really important and so good, don't dumb down.

MR: Yeah, no, I think that's probably why she's so vocal because when my husband went back to work after she was born, it was just me and Athea, well, like me just talking to her at first. I had no one else to talk to, so I would literally narrate our day. So, going back to your boys, you have also highlighted the importance of teaching boys accountability and emotional intelligence from an early age. What changes do you think schools, parents, and employers need to make to support this, and how can we ensure these values are consistently reinforced as boys grow into adulthood?

JC: Yeah, I think we all need to be on the same page with expecting the same things from boys as we do from girls. So, for a start, obviously, why can't boys cry, why can't boys talk about emotions, why can't we ask them to help us empty the dishwasher like we expect their sisters to? Why is there such a different set of expectations for boys and girls? It’s so ingrained in us and it can be really subtle, it's not like you're necessarily making a choice to treat a boy and a girl differently but we have to like proactively work to make sure we are doing the work, we can't expect it to be a given, we've got to go against our biases and really sort of make those changes intentionally. We all have to do this, parents, teachers and grandparents who can be pretty bad for it, I'm sure you’ve noticed, it's often the older generation, and they're so influential, that's the trouble.

MR: I know! It's just insane the amount of times where Athea’s crying or something, and I pick her up, and it's like "Oh, you'll spoil her." Like what, by giving her love, I'm spoiling her!? 

JC: I know, it's classic. Shocking, and it’s just so wrong, it's even scientifically wrong, so there you go.

MR:  Yeah, I know. Although I do worry about school. So, like she doesn't go to nursery or school yet, she’s with me full time but I keep thinking about the influence of what she'll be taught as opposed to how I think she should be taught and I also think about the teachers that will try to dull her sparkle, you know and yeah, I just worry about that so much.

JC: It will happen. I think that's the sad reality, it does happen, but I think part of keeping that spark alive is through curiosity and asking questions like “why has that teacher said that to me?” They don't have to agree with the teacher, and they don't have to be rude, but they don't have to internally agree with what that teacher said to them. They can come back and say to you at the end of the day, "Mummy, it made me feel like this." And you can help her say, "Well, do you want to go and speak to that teacher?" You know, shall we work out how you could talk to that teacher about what's happened? Um, like again, it's like when she said Mummy I like my voice, that’ll later turn into Mummy I like who I am, and Mummy I want to go and stick up for that person because I didn't like how this person treated that person.

MR: Yeah, I'm definitely going to be that annoying parent that's like coming in to see the Headteacher like “so, Mr Reynolds… 

JC: Mr Reynolds! Haha 

MR: Mr Reynolds, I don't know I guess I just have Ryan Reynolds on my mind! Haha

JC: Yeah, I can see that haha 

MR: So, your podcast, Women Are Mad, which is brilliant by the way, explores a range of themes each week. What kinds of conversations are you having, and how are women responding?

JC: We always start, when we have a guest on, obviously from this like launch pad of anger because it's so unusual for women to be allowed to go straight in with the things that make them angry, but we never stay in that place. Where it takes us is so different with every single guest, and I think there are repeating themes. At the moment, injustice is a really big one that people are coming through with all the time. Um, but again I think that talks to what you're saying about this idea of like a community of women that's starting to go, "What, hang on a minute." Like we're realising that one of the things that has been making us so furious is the way we've all been treated, the lack of fairness and real equality. We are now getting together to kind of combine our stories about that because obviously, everyone's got different flavours of injustice, but when you put it together in this one big soup, it's quite clear that there is something wrong. 

I think at the moment it’s really like on our minds and we are not prepared to, you know, stay in that place any longer. I think it means so much to our listeners to hear from these women, across all different backgrounds and different disciplines, to show that everyone feels the same. Our listeners enjoy hearing not just from us but also from other women who are at the top of their field and who are really respected in that field, having those same sort of moments of like okay, how do I approach this without coming across too domineering or bossy. We have these conversations differently with our friends and our family members, and our workplaces, but it's happening, and that's what they're telling us.

MR: In a recent podcast episode for Women Are Mad, you touched on how class and anger intersect and how your backgrounds have impacted how you react. I really enjoyed Salima’s take on that and um, you had on, I forgot what her name was, the actress…

JC: Cariad? Cariad Lloyd.

MR: Yes, and you were talking about how your background and appearance can affect how people react to your anger. How do societal expectations around femininity intersect with race, class, or sexuality when it comes to expressing anger?

JC: Oh my god, yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it, because this is where I think the point about the sort of different experiences women have are so compelling - like no one woman has had the same experience. I would say you can't even necessarily boil it down to, oh well if you are a Southeast Asian woman then this is how you're going going to struggle with anger or if grew up on a council estate, I just don't think it can be as boiled down to definite themes and patterns among certain groups like that's undeniable and I think it's global as well, that's what's interesting. I see it with my patients, when I have calls with international patients, it's like, oh wow, okay, funnily enough, I just heard a woman say almost exactly the same thing, even though she had grown up in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere. So, I think there are definite shared stories but with different kind of chapters in it and it's really important to listen to the different chapters for each woman because I think most of this is about allowing each woman to tell her story the way she feels it and that's what we haven't been allowed to do, there are so many people rushing in and going "Oh well because you're this, this is going to be your experience and this is going to be your take and your tale." No, not necessarily and also even if there is an element of that you've still got a very different kind of family from the family you might have grown up next door to, even if you're from the same like similar backgrounds it's so specific and I think we can't again impose our generalised view onto all women of this class group or of this racial group. Like let's hear it from the individual person themselves, how she has experienced it. 

MR: No, absolutely. And I do think there are societal expectations on what people think of that person and how that person may react to situations because they have these sorts of stereotypical views. It’s like what happened when Salima was talking about her mother, who was waiting at the bus stop and was approached by a guy who was pestering her. She said that her mum totally looks like a prim, typical middle class lady but she told the guy to fuck off, which he didn’t expect because again, he had this idea of who she was.

JC: Yeah, that's right! It's like the subversion of expectation needs to be in there, like I'm not doing that, that's not who I'm going to be, don't you dare put that trope onto me. Um, and I hope that's what we're helping do with our podcast, in having these women tell their story without our view coming in and crowding it.

MR: What stories or insights from your podcast guests have stayed with you the most?

JC: Oh, I think Gail Porter, actually, we interviewed her about the way that she'd been treated by the press at such a vulnerable point in her life. Um, I think she's amazing, like what she does, how she's been homeless, she's sort of really suffered, but she wouldn't let that define her or stop her and the work she now does for increasing awareness around mental health. I think she’s amazing. Also, Jess Phillips, like my hat, all my hats go off to her. I don't know how she manages, like in the face of you know, the proper old boys club pressure of Westminster coming down on you. And yet she just keeps going, and the power of her reading out the names every year of the women who have been killed in parliament. I just think it's that type of tenacity and commitment that paves roads for the rest of u,s and yeah, I think those two for me are like the biggies.  

MR: What are some myths you regularly encounter about women and mental health, especially in clinical settings?

JC: That's a good question. I think we imagine that rich people don't have problems because a lot of my patients are in London, so a lot of them are from affluent backgrounds so we might think you're alright, like what on earth have you got to complain about? I'd say that a lot of those women have been the most trapped and the most voiceless of any I've worked with, and that's saying something. So, that's been the most surprising one for me, to kind of challenge my own prejudice.

MR: Yeah, I've always said that, I've always said that I don't think it matters how much money you have or how much access to power. Everyone has problems, you know, I think everyone can be in a situation where they feel there's no escape or have mental health issues. It just means they probably have access to help more easily than other people, but it doesn't mean that their problems are less important or less relevant than anyone else's 

JC:  Exactly, and if that woman decides that the only way out is to end her life, it's still two or three kids that are left without a mother in the world. 

MR: What small, radical steps can women take today to begin accessing and expressing their anger more freely?

JC: So, I think challenging almost all of our first reflexes on what we should do in a situation, I think that's very small and very radical. So, like if someone asks you to do something or somebody expects you to provide them with something or someone is dismissive of you when you go to see the GP, we need to look at how we'd normally handle that situation and decide, no this ends today, we're not doing this anymore.  

MR: You’ve mentioned being interested in writing opinion pieces. What topics are burning in your mind right now?

JC: I guess I love this place where politics intersects with the personal because I think politics begins at home, and it often begins with women. And you know, I think you can kind of see how these little seeds explode into larger and more widespread or even global issues, and I think that's my area of interest really, where micro leads to macro and what we can do in these small, very personal ways to change things. 

MR: Yeah, well, if you ever want to write an opinion piece for The C Word, let me know! 

JC: Oh, thank you, yeah, I would love to.

MR: So, what’s next for you? Are there any new projects, books, or expansions of the Women Are Mad platform?

JC: Yes, so we are hoping to start doing live shows in about autumn time so you must come along. 

MR: Yes, please, definitely! 

JC: I'll definitely keep you posted, I think it would be like two episodes in one, where we would have a guest and also do a kind of problem-solving thing with anonymous audience questions. Um, so we'd keep the dynamic and the freshness of the show, but then literally include our audience in real time, I think that would be really exciting. Um, and so that's the plan, and then I'm also writing my new book. It's very much in embryonic form, but it is definitely along the lines of this kind of state and atmosphere and what we should be doing about it. 

MR: Amazing, I can't wait to read it!